When I first started noticing women comedians talking about sex, my initial reaction was prurient interest. But it didn’t take long for me to realize that they were using it as a way of getting at the emotional reality under the sexy part. And I’m thankful to women comedians for making this giant contribution to our society; they’re talking about sex in a way that helps us all understand ourselves better. I don’t think there’s any more honest and healthy public discussion about sex than the one women comedians are giving us. Any man criticizing them for it is misogynist, but not only that; he’s foolishly rejecting an opportunity for growth and enlightenment about the human condition. I think that beyond the hate, all intolerance is essentially a perverse rejection of a better world.
Thanks for this thoughtful piece— very interesting the way you looked at it from different angles.
Hi Karl, thanks for this thoughtful response. I love the way you praise women's contribution to society. I definitely have my own demons that prevent me from seeing women in such a hard light at times.
Well, I suspect that my generous take on one thing women have done beautifully ought to be part of a larger understanding of things women can be praised or criticized for. I appreciate women, and I’m grateful for them, but I don’t romanticize them. I hope women will treat me the same way. (That said, I will fight tooth and nail against criticism of me. But as an abstract proposition, i welcome criticism.)
"Any man criticizing them for it is misogynist, but not only that; he’s foolishly rejecting an opportunity for growth and enlightenment about the human condition." What if we are just criticizing them the same way we'd criticize a man for doing the same (or similar) material? That feels like equality to me.
That’s certainly fair enough, if you’re keeping it level. My criticism is for anyone applying a double standard, or suggesting that women shouldn’t do this sort of material, but it’s okay for men to. And I should be honest and say that I don’t have any personal knowledge of a double standard being applied there; you and Caroline are pros, and I’m just a fan. You’ll have your own perception of the degree to which women as a group are unfairly judged for this. I’ve always found your observations perceptive and reasonable, so I assume this topic wouldn’t change that for me. (I hope I threaded that needle convincingly there; I have a lot of respect and affection for both of you, so I hope I haven’t managed to destroy my credibility with my backpedaling.)
Plenty of us think sex jokes are lame when done by either men or women. But it feels like much more of a trend from female comedians nowadays. My issue with that: It's frequently just taking a totally hack 80s joke premise – but since it comes out of the mouth of a 2024 female comedian, it gets an applause break because "feminism." The same people who would hate on Andrew Dice Clay seemingly love when a woman (basically) does his act. I get it, it's the contrast of hearing that kinda material from a woman instead of a man. But if the joke is just "it's toxic masculinity but out of a lady," it still feels very low hanging ball– wait, I mean fruit. (See?) Like, congrats, you're an inverted hack. Hooray? Whenever I hear that kinda stuff, I think, "You're better than this. And if you're not, you should be."
Maybe the *applause break because of feminism* is just course correction for the *centuries of patriarchy* ?? It's awkward, but somewhat a step in the right direction. Funny is funny in the end. I don't loose much sleep over a mediocre female comedian who's gets more famous than a mediocre male comedian because of feminism.
I just listened to Nikki Glaser on Fresh Air and recommend that EVERYONE LISTEN TO IT. She talks about the very thing we’re talking about, talking about sex as a female comedian compared to talking about sex as a male comedian, in a way that is so wise and human and bringing originality to the topic, which of course points to the truth that there are going to be unique and brilliant practitioners making great comedy art out of the most well-trodden of topics, and so the question of “does one gender do a thing more” kind of falls away for me.
Nikki’s been talking about sex for her entire career in hilarious and wonderful ways. Jacqueline Novak’s new 1.5-hour special is all about blowjobs, and it’s high art, basically the comedy equivalent of literature. They’re both nominated for Emmys I believe, and well-deserved.
And hearing Nikki talk about the shift in society and comedy over the past 20ish years, from a time where there weren’t many female comedians PERIOD, let alone female comedians who were talking about sex (they were mainly accused of talking about their PERIOD), and how she was voicing her thoughts and fears about sex in a way that she didn’t hear people talking about sex at all at the time (and to this day, I’ll add, the way she’s doing it), I think the whole conversation of whether any gender talks about sex “too much” is a misguided question. It’s about the QUALITY, not the QUANTITY.
(PS I first shared this as a comment on one of Matt Ruby's posts about this topic, but thought it would be relevant and meaningful here as well.)
Nikki is incredible, and I really feel like the honesty and vulnerability that she shows in her comedy really comes through in this Fresh Air interview. A master class!
"Let’s assume that there is no difference between the amount men and women talk about sex and private parts. I mean how many male comedians talk about their dicks and wanking all the time? And we’re like tee hee penis, but eww gross vagina. Louis CK talked about his downstairs operations a. lot. and we never branded his material as “a bit too much sex for me” and look what happened! Maybe we should have shamed him more earlier on."
Broad rulings about female comics always make me squirm. Each one is an individual, and some do sex jokes well while others botch the job. I feel like audience members who aren't putting their own personal issues on the material can usually smell a rat, sometimes even before they know what they're intuiting. Years before his crimes became public, I remember watching Louis C.K. and wondering, am I uncomfortable with masturbation or does this dude veer off during sets to relive wanks with the crowd? He's got some great material, but is he dissociating or something? Nope, just a wildly brazen sex offender. Great post, lots to think about. Thank you.
I’ve been told that I have a weird line. I can say the filthiest things on stage without being graphic.
I do talk about sex a lot during my stand up but mainly because that when the funny stuff happens - that’s when I’m at my most awkward and I think this level of vulnerability is what the audience can relate to. Yet as a sensitive person with a very active imagination- I immediately get turned off when I hear graphic descriptions of body parts. We have one guy who talks about his recent colonoscopy…I cringe when I hear that.
Posted this on another thread and realized it was a restack and not the original article...
Weirdly I don't hear many comics locally talk much about sex. They'll talk about sex-adjacent things like porn or masturbation. and a lot of within-a-relatuonship stuff is barely touched on
Can't tell if it's because so many of them are single, because gender stuff is considered hacky or off the table, but it creates an interesting effect.
There's much more feelings of ‘I” than ‘we” when comcis are talking about this stuff. I suppose it's comcis aren't assuming we all have the same experience, but it also feels a little isolating as well
I don't know if there's a conclusion to draw but it interests me
When I first started noticing women comedians talking about sex, my initial reaction was prurient interest. But it didn’t take long for me to realize that they were using it as a way of getting at the emotional reality under the sexy part. And I’m thankful to women comedians for making this giant contribution to our society; they’re talking about sex in a way that helps us all understand ourselves better. I don’t think there’s any more honest and healthy public discussion about sex than the one women comedians are giving us. Any man criticizing them for it is misogynist, but not only that; he’s foolishly rejecting an opportunity for growth and enlightenment about the human condition. I think that beyond the hate, all intolerance is essentially a perverse rejection of a better world.
Thanks for this thoughtful piece— very interesting the way you looked at it from different angles.
Hi Karl, thanks for this thoughtful response. I love the way you praise women's contribution to society. I definitely have my own demons that prevent me from seeing women in such a hard light at times.
Well, I suspect that my generous take on one thing women have done beautifully ought to be part of a larger understanding of things women can be praised or criticized for. I appreciate women, and I’m grateful for them, but I don’t romanticize them. I hope women will treat me the same way. (That said, I will fight tooth and nail against criticism of me. But as an abstract proposition, i welcome criticism.)
"Any man criticizing them for it is misogynist, but not only that; he’s foolishly rejecting an opportunity for growth and enlightenment about the human condition." What if we are just criticizing them the same way we'd criticize a man for doing the same (or similar) material? That feels like equality to me.
That’s certainly fair enough, if you’re keeping it level. My criticism is for anyone applying a double standard, or suggesting that women shouldn’t do this sort of material, but it’s okay for men to. And I should be honest and say that I don’t have any personal knowledge of a double standard being applied there; you and Caroline are pros, and I’m just a fan. You’ll have your own perception of the degree to which women as a group are unfairly judged for this. I’ve always found your observations perceptive and reasonable, so I assume this topic wouldn’t change that for me. (I hope I threaded that needle convincingly there; I have a lot of respect and affection for both of you, so I hope I haven’t managed to destroy my credibility with my backpedaling.)
In retrospect 'Don't cum on Totoro' was a misjudged sequel
Poor Totoro ☔
Plenty of us think sex jokes are lame when done by either men or women. But it feels like much more of a trend from female comedians nowadays. My issue with that: It's frequently just taking a totally hack 80s joke premise – but since it comes out of the mouth of a 2024 female comedian, it gets an applause break because "feminism." The same people who would hate on Andrew Dice Clay seemingly love when a woman (basically) does his act. I get it, it's the contrast of hearing that kinda material from a woman instead of a man. But if the joke is just "it's toxic masculinity but out of a lady," it still feels very low hanging ball– wait, I mean fruit. (See?) Like, congrats, you're an inverted hack. Hooray? Whenever I hear that kinda stuff, I think, "You're better than this. And if you're not, you should be."
Maybe the *applause break because of feminism* is just course correction for the *centuries of patriarchy* ?? It's awkward, but somewhat a step in the right direction. Funny is funny in the end. I don't loose much sleep over a mediocre female comedian who's gets more famous than a mediocre male comedian because of feminism.
Brilliant.
🥰
I just listened to Nikki Glaser on Fresh Air and recommend that EVERYONE LISTEN TO IT. She talks about the very thing we’re talking about, talking about sex as a female comedian compared to talking about sex as a male comedian, in a way that is so wise and human and bringing originality to the topic, which of course points to the truth that there are going to be unique and brilliant practitioners making great comedy art out of the most well-trodden of topics, and so the question of “does one gender do a thing more” kind of falls away for me.
Nikki’s been talking about sex for her entire career in hilarious and wonderful ways. Jacqueline Novak’s new 1.5-hour special is all about blowjobs, and it’s high art, basically the comedy equivalent of literature. They’re both nominated for Emmys I believe, and well-deserved.
And hearing Nikki talk about the shift in society and comedy over the past 20ish years, from a time where there weren’t many female comedians PERIOD, let alone female comedians who were talking about sex (they were mainly accused of talking about their PERIOD), and how she was voicing her thoughts and fears about sex in a way that she didn’t hear people talking about sex at all at the time (and to this day, I’ll add, the way she’s doing it), I think the whole conversation of whether any gender talks about sex “too much” is a misguided question. It’s about the QUALITY, not the QUANTITY.
(PS I first shared this as a comment on one of Matt Ruby's posts about this topic, but thought it would be relevant and meaningful here as well.)
I love Nikki Glazer, best roaster out there! I look forward to hearing this, thanks!
Nikki is incredible, and I really feel like the honesty and vulnerability that she shows in her comedy really comes through in this Fresh Air interview. A master class!
dear caroline,
this is funny and on point:
"Let’s assume that there is no difference between the amount men and women talk about sex and private parts. I mean how many male comedians talk about their dicks and wanking all the time? And we’re like tee hee penis, but eww gross vagina. Louis CK talked about his downstairs operations a. lot. and we never branded his material as “a bit too much sex for me” and look what happened! Maybe we should have shamed him more earlier on."
thanks for sharing as always!
love
myq
Broad rulings about female comics always make me squirm. Each one is an individual, and some do sex jokes well while others botch the job. I feel like audience members who aren't putting their own personal issues on the material can usually smell a rat, sometimes even before they know what they're intuiting. Years before his crimes became public, I remember watching Louis C.K. and wondering, am I uncomfortable with masturbation or does this dude veer off during sets to relive wanks with the crowd? He's got some great material, but is he dissociating or something? Nope, just a wildly brazen sex offender. Great post, lots to think about. Thank you.
I’ve been told that I have a weird line. I can say the filthiest things on stage without being graphic.
I do talk about sex a lot during my stand up but mainly because that when the funny stuff happens - that’s when I’m at my most awkward and I think this level of vulnerability is what the audience can relate to. Yet as a sensitive person with a very active imagination- I immediately get turned off when I hear graphic descriptions of body parts. We have one guy who talks about his recent colonoscopy…I cringe when I hear that.
Posted this on another thread and realized it was a restack and not the original article...
Weirdly I don't hear many comics locally talk much about sex. They'll talk about sex-adjacent things like porn or masturbation. and a lot of within-a-relatuonship stuff is barely touched on
Can't tell if it's because so many of them are single, because gender stuff is considered hacky or off the table, but it creates an interesting effect.
There's much more feelings of ‘I” than ‘we” when comcis are talking about this stuff. I suppose it's comcis aren't assuming we all have the same experience, but it also feels a little isolating as well
I don't know if there's a conclusion to draw but it interests me